MK can break through shields, has strong attacks with very little lag, is the least gimpable while recovering, his attacks damage rate are in between Marth and Ganondorf's, despite being a lightweight. Also, his range is at least as good as Marth's despite being faster, having a better recovery, and being quicker than him. Plus, his entire moveset is miles above everyone else's.

Snake is not on the same level. Individually, he is a great counter for MK, but he has a LIMITED metagame because of the ineffectiveness of his physical traits in his moves: He's slow, many moves have strong lag, has the utmost gimpable recovery, and has an offense limited to the obvious jab/ tilts, with maybe an arial here and there. There is very little to a Snake offense. If you have trouble with him because his basic attacks are so gross, that's a you problem. Just plan against those in particular; he's not going to be very effective with anything else. Considering MK has many strong approach moves, has an offense-based defense in most scenarios, and has a lot of variety in general, I don't see how MK isn't easily above Snake.

Plus, MK rapes more of the cast harder than Snake does...

Also, Olimar's strongest strategy ( obviously shield camping) is probably stronger than MK's strongest ( persistance/ pressuring), considering the risk in the risk/reward of both is MUCH less in Olimar's case. Also, Olimar has some of the most damaging, difficult-to-avoid combos. He's probably on Mario, MK, and Peach's level in comboing.

His grab range is on DK's level, the damage and knockback from his attacks are only topped by Gdorf, DK, MK, Bowser, G&W, Snake, and Dedede. His offensive skillset is WAY past Snake's, while the recovery is worst than Snake's in lift but better in that it functions as an attack as well.

The only legit argument I can see against Olimar not being high-tier is that you can only play him two ways, fewer than what most characters can do. (i.e you can't play him in ways the pro players are comfortable doing--the technical Melee style) But that has little to do with him having weaknesses.

Everyone has seen the technical Diddy combos, yet only the genius of the game, Azen, is able to consistently avoid and counter them . Not even M2K is able to overcome the top Diddys, despite playing two characters who naturally counter him, DDD and MK. Diddy-banana combos are still officially painstakingly hard to avoid as of now.Everyone else has combos that can be avoided by foresight and DI'ing after the first attack instead of trying to dodge them with not enough frames to do so. Not Diddy.

What's so OBJECTIVELY absurd about Diddy being top four?
Snake is below the ^^two because his matchups against them are tedious and will few options besides excessive defense. Likewise, Olimar and Diddy can perform their tactics with similar ease against everyone.

From the basis of best defensive-player should win( afterall, there is little hitstun, infinite air-dodges, and attacks out of dodges), Olimar and Diddy have more to work with immediately out of their defense.

I suppose no one wants to read this anymore, so please respond to the post and tell me who is not placed right and why.

Take this for whatever it's worth, but M2K has said a few times over the past two months that he thinks M2K, Snake, Diddy, Olimar, and Dedede are the top five in the game at this point.

Now, I don't believe in tiers and I have mained MK since the day I got the game. Tiers suck and I suck with a lot of those characters ranked high especially Snake.

Tiers don't exist objectively, but they clearly exist to those very aware and studious of what goes on in the game.

Tiers basically sump up character rankings based off physical attributes, attack range, percentage-dealt with attacks, combo potential with each individual moveset, and potential for tactics that are both hard to avoid and are lethal when abused ( like Diddy's banana combos).

MK is pretty much better than Falcon in every area; therefore he is at least one tier higher than falcon.

^THIS!!!!!

OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG!!!!! Finally!!!!!!

Lol somebody here gets it... GJ

Why is King Dedede higher than Sonic.Sonic should be High Tier at least.

Because he has no range, priority,power, good grabs, spike, or a projectile, all he has it's speed and recovery which make him garbage on such an defensive game.

Kind DDD on the other hand has range, priority, power, GREAT grabs (CG amirite?) and one hell of a recovery, his speed sucks and the lag of his attacks too but he is a better character by far.

Seriously people stop thinking that just because YOU are good with a character it means that he's the best in the game -_-'.

Every character can break shields, MK can't do it well because he has very poor shield stun. He has fast attacks, but they really arn't strong. The only ones I can think of that are fast and strong is the second hit of his down smash and his shuttle loop. Metaknight also suffers from DI problems on his up smash, fair, jab, Mach Tornado and Drill Rush. Possibly his back aerial, but I've never tested it. He also has some bad moves such as his forward smash, up tilt, up smash, jab and back aerial. As we know from example of Jigglypuff, useless moves brings down a character quite a bit. At top level play, Jigglypuff, Mario, Marth and DK would be the hardest to gimp due to super armor, extreme priority, stalling or a combination of all of the above.

Are you assuming that Marth tippers every attack? The statement on Metaknights damage output seems wrong, although I can't call you on it because I've never actually tested it. Marth's recovery also can't be intercepted due to his 3 frame forward air with good range and his up b that stage spikes, comes out extremely fast and makes him invincible. I've tried stopping it tons of times. His moveset is also not miles ahead, for reasons I've explained. I don't even consider MK good at killing he has one reliable KO move, being his down smash and that only kills well in the back. His Shuttle Loop might be reliable, I only recognize the reverse piece of the attack being strong and it takes bad positioning to be hit by that, but I'll admit that I don't know much about his Shuttle Loop. MK seems to be about as bad at killing as Mario. Mario has more options though and his air moves can combo into his bair and nair, which are his aerial finishers.

Metaknight does best in the air and Snake does best on the ground, Snake's ground movement is faster than MK's air movement when compared to the rest of the cast. MK's air movement is one of the slowest in the game, and he has nothing to substitute for it, Snake has Snake Dashing which makes him go faster than Captain Falcon and turns his body into a hitbox, on top of being practical for placement. Have you watched Snake players? He has an insane ground control game, and a camp game, he is not limited to his jab and his tilts at all, they are just very good and outclass MK's. His upsmash can also be used for direct offensive purposes, Snake Dashing, especially. Snake's defensive game is much better than his offensive.

Snake can hold his grenades to break out of chaingrabs, and when he gets hit while he's holding a grenade it will explode, making for a great defense considering he can just hold his shield. MK doesn't have any projectiles at all and he has a slower ground speed than Captain Falcon and a much slower air speed than Captain Falcon. Direct planning is much more effective against MK considering his sheer amount of moves he won't be using. For MK there's hold shield and release it when he's done so you can punish him. His shield stun is really bad, you can drop your shield instantly against MK. In the air DI away from him and he can't follow up due to either his attacks being DI'able, not being able to combo at all with his air moves (look at Mario and then compare him to MK, MK can't combo at all,) or MK losing his advantage due to his laughable air speed. Also, don't forget that MK is forced to approach, an automatic disadvantage considering the very good approach breaking options that the defensive character's have in this game.

Also, explain MK's general variety, from my eyes it looks like he has a predictable just about everything.

Before Chillin''s tier list came out, the same was true for Snake. Snake was basically invincible, this seems like just another fad. Have you ever heard "wsnake is not a character"?

I agree with most of this, but keep in mind that Olimars Pikmin don't have priority in the sense that you can actually kill his attacks, which is why he has such a terrible match-up against Peach and Yoshi. Also, Olimar's recovery is the worst in the game. Having to rely on a tether as your only mode of recovery is bad. Ivysaur is better because at least Ivysaur can knock people from the ledge by using razor leaf, Olimar has to throw away his recovery hoping he can hit someone on the edge with a purple pikmin, he's also light making him easy to put in that position. He's a good character, but not good enough to make him one of the best.

Falco players come to mind.

MK and D3 in no way counter Diddy. Also reflectors take down Diddy by a bit, glide-tossing against him could arguably make the match more even, but due to barrel-countering it isn't much of a case any more. Diddy Kong is really good, I won't argue that.

Having a good match-up against one of the characters above you doesn't make a character better than them. Excessive defense isn't bad for snake because he uses it anyway and is great at it. Snake can also take down Diddy due his ground control that gets in the way of Diddy's banana options such as his mines, grenades c4 and up smash. Olimar I believe is a hard counter to Snake, Donkey Kong is too along with ROB and DK and Diddy are right next to eachother in near every tier list. So following your idea it seems like Donkey Kong would move up as well.


This isn't really true anymore because of the existance of MK, Wario, Kirby and Diddy all doing well despite being great on the offensive. Also, being a defensive player doesn't mean that you don't take a combo chance when you see it, I consider myself to be a defensive player, but when I see a chance to do more than one move in a sequence I will always do it because of the value of having the other player in a bad position. Diddy doesn't have that much of a defense and is one of the characters that is perfectly fine approaching.

It doesn't particularly mean that it's true, what people believe in the Smash Community changes too quickly.

[quote=DK Barrel;973860]Every character can break shields, MK can't do it well because he has very poor shield stun. ? Don't some of his moves go past shields ( that's what I meant to say originally) like Marth's fair or GW's bair?

They're not grossly strong, but considering his range and speed, I consider them strong. He can rack up damage with the most ease in the game, making his attack strength that less important. Plus, he has the best pressure offense in the game as well, making attack strength less important for that reason.

Realistically, MK can rack up damage and kill someone at 120% faster than, say, Snake can do the same to the same character and kill him at 100--if they're playing their usual ways ( MK pressuring; Snake dash attacking, 'nades, and trying to mindgame into tilts/ jabs.), I think.

Very true, but not that important, considering he can continuously spam those moves until they HAVE to use their shield, wearing it down. Upsmash is typically a move I would almost never use for any reason. Also, his upsmash comes out three times, making it more likely to land than most others' fsmash.
Quite frankly, when I know can land moves with ease, not being able to kill with that move means squat, considering I will likely be landing move-after-move-after-move, while everyone else has to play strong defense and mindgame into a single succesfully landed hit in most cases.

What DI problem does his Fair have that someone like Marth's doesn't? Are you basing it off you can't combo with it exclusively? It's basically his neutral with a slightly smaller hitbox overall but with more hitbox range in the direction chosen.
After they're hit, people can DI out of it? In most cases Marth is dealing with the same crap. Mach Tornado is a broken move. I'm sorry. The only reason it isn't obvious is because people find it unethical to abuse it more than they already do. If you don't dodge and then DI right, you won't be able to use your shield to defend against it for more than one full cycle. After that, it could wear down your shield to the point of going past what's left and leaving you stuck in it without the ability to DI out of it until after taking 14-18 damage or so. If you don't DI properly again, you would then very likely take close to maximum damage because you can't spot dodge it without getting hit after those frames wear off, and your shield has already been worn down from the previous tornadoes.

I'm not that well-studied of drill rush, so this is probably my most naive comment here, but drill rush seems to have almost infinite priority and, if you land the attack, you can almost immediately do it again for major knockback. I have to study this move more, though.
I couldn't agree that his fsmash is bad. I just tested it and you can do it three times within a second if you start the timing when the hitboxes appear; almost three within a second from the start of the first attack. Also, it has more knockback than a non-tipper Marth fsmash while doing the same amount of damage: If you watch it, MK swings in such a way that for most of the duration of the hitbox it would connect at an angle sending the opponent slightly downwards with more velocity than Marth's fsmash at pretty much any distance away. It's not a useless move at all, just not as useful in ways people ASSUME it should be useful in.

Uptilt is bad? He can juggle most opponents for a free 22 damage or so? It's not gross like Shiek or Mario's, but any move that can juggle is not a bad move.

His jab is bad, too? I would agree that it's a little risky to use because of it's pre-determined long duration, but you can't dodge around it and have to shield roll in order to avoid getting hit at all.

I can't remember his Bair right now.

It is wrong, but is actually in my favor. MK's damage output with Fsmash is the same as Marth's when not sweet spotted. And, again, the knockback is stronger than Marth's non-tipped. So, essentially, his Fsmash is way quicker, does equal damage, and has more knockback than a character who is heavier than he is.

I'm too eager to play now, after thinking and talking about it. I'l lfinish this later.

I don't have experience with Marth's fair shield-poking. When something shield-pokes it's because the opponent's shield is too small or the attack hits in a spot not protected by the shield. G&W's bair does that because it his a lot of time and wears down shields easily, shield pokes can be avoided by angling the shield or not holding your shield against multiple attacks.

Speed of racking up damage isn't directly related to how good it is, the efficiency is what matters. Besides Shiek, Yoshi, Olimar, Diddy, Bowser and Game and Watch might do it faster anyway. Wario, Game and Watch, DK, Diddy and Marth have better pressure games because they can be more consistent and evasive in more circumstances due to either speed or how well they damage shields.

Speed is a really vague thing to go into because efficiency would be most more accurate. Snake can survive a shuttle loop at 150 because it's easy to DI to the corners. Take Mario's back throw as an example, if you DI up from that attack, you live a whole lot longer. MK also dies really easy off the top, where most kills for all characters take place, because it can't be DI'd as well. Also, Snake can KO MK at 80% with his up tilt. Snake also can base a lot of his game off of countering MK among other things.

They don't have to spam it to make someone use their shield, people use their shield the first time an attack is used. Keep in mind that Wario's down smash is bad because it lasts so long. Even though it does come out three times, it can still be spot dodged.

MK can only land moves one after another on the ground due to DI. Even his down tilt, which has a good frame advantage and arguably his best poke, you can perfect shield and punish, without even perfect shielding it can be escaped with a small amount of hits if you get caught by the initial hit. Also, a lack of kill moves is a bad thing. Kill moves can be used to rack up damage, so it's a very bad thing.

Multi-hit moves put you in hit-lag, during hitlag you can use smash DI to escape moves that are multi-hit, and even if you don't escape you can use normal DI to keep him from following up due to MK's terrible air speed. Marth doesn't have any of those problems.

Broken would mean that if you don't use MK and spam Mach Tornado you will lose, which is false. Mach Tornado has 29 frames of ending lag from a normal finish and 35 frames of ending lag from a botched landing, in addition to whatever amount of helpless frames he gained falling from the sky, from what I remember. Also, MK's do not have any problem spamming that move, but note that the famous MK players don't spam it and they place the best. M2K also doesn't ever lose MK dittos, if you need to have a variable isolated.

The move is also punishable after only one cycle, leaving your shield the time to recover from it and also gets punished on command due to it's long duration that you don't have to have any sort of chance to say that you couldn't punish it correctly because it was unexpected. For instance, an MK tornado is a DK down smash. Also, DK's shield is the worst in the game (not including OOS options, sorry Yoshi.) As DK I can fully shield that move by angling it. Even if you get caught in it, you can DI out and punish sometimes, Fox and Sonic pop right out, for instance. It also won't do that much damage if you DI. I used Mach Tornado on a Snake CPU and he only took 15% actually. I remember only taking like 9%.

In other words, the shield is fine, even as DK, if worst comes to worst you can run away to recharge your shield. It goes to full from zero in 12 seconds or maybe that was Bowser's fire breath, I can't remember.

It doesn't, it can be broken by Bowser's dtilt, you can actually edgeguard with it, lol. Also, Drill Rush has so much lag, the only way it doesn't have enough lag for a half-charged Ike forward smash is if it sweet-spots the ledge. You can actually get hit by that move, DI out and then Ike forward smash him. Drill Rush is like useless for anything but recovery.


MK's forward smash comes out in 24 frames and Marth's comes out in 11. Try tippering Marth's fsmash, if it didn't have a bad non-tipper it would be broken. Marth's also has more range. So MK's forward smash is actually slower than Donkey Kong's and doesn't have any shield stun. (Admittedly DK's fsmash uncharged has hilariously only 2 frames of shield stun, but it increases at a much faster rate than other characters.) Meta's shield stun is just bad. Another fact is that Marth has a tipper hit box behind him.

Bad range, bad speed and it juggles poorly, I'm actually pretty confident it could be escaped after one hit more easily than every other juggle.

You can just shield it until it pushes you away, it's super easy to DI, comes out slow, has lots of lag, chains to nothing, does very bad damage and you can actually shield while you are caught in it.

Voted worst jab in the game in this thread.

The Worst "___" Thread - All is Brawl forums

I was playing against MK and I moved a significant amount during hit lag, seemed more so than with his fair so I think I could get out if I used smash DI.

I explained this and MK's forward smash is actually way slower.

Edit: Actually all the lag from Drill Rush I was thinking of was from when it's finished in the air, drilling into the ground does not have that much lag, but it's still bad. Another thing I got wrong is that snake's up tilt does not kill MK at 80% although I'm not sure how much later it kills.