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Evolution or Creation?


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I am an Atheist Evolutionist 33 28.95%
I am a Christian Evolutionist 23 20.18%
I am a Creationist 36 31.58%
I don't know 22 19.30%
Voters: 114. You may not vote on this poll

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Koopa Kart Fan - Gwyno...just plain old Gwyno

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Reply to Titan
 
 
06-14-2009, 09:47 PM
  #411 (permalink)  
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OK I think this is going to go easier if I stick to one issue at a time and stick to the creationist thing. Original sin is a good debate but off the topic for this really.

So, the fossil issue. As far as I am concerned, the dinosaur fossils are millions of years old. Hundreds of millions of years. Scientific analysis has shown us this. You believe that the earth is 6,000 years old and the fossils are really about 5,000 or so I guess.

What do you think of the scientific evidence? We know how to date things. The methods have been accepted for years and years by all the people with beards who always seem to know what they are talking about. Personally I believe that the scientists are right. They know more than me and their experience has been built up over generations so I accept what the results of their experiments show. From your point of view was every test done inaccurate? Are the instruments giving incorrect readings?

Sticking with dinosaurs, from the description you posted from Job I figured it may be some sort of sauropod. Especially with the tree tail. Brachiosaur probably because they were brown. I had to google it to know what I am talking about though.

There are several translations of the description hanging around. All the artwork representing it shows something resembling a boar. I couldn't find anything showing a dinosaur. The cedar tail thing differs too. Some say it hardens like a cedar and others say the tail is more like the cedar branches which could account for an elephant or boar in that part of the world.

Also, there was only one behemoth. The passages I saw in my brief search don't imply the term is used as a plural. It just doesn't seem that herds of dinosaurs would be referred to in that way. If humans and dinos were living together there'd be more references to them not just one individual.

Behemoth is also described as first in the ways of God and I don;t know what that means but I take it as implying he's some holy thing to be revered rather than just one of many large reptiles living on the planet. Plus monsters appear in many religions for many reasons so it may be a metaphor.

Oh and Behemoth fights Leviathan at some point in time. Have they had their fight yet and if not where are they at the moment?
Last edited by Gwyno; 06-14-2009 at 09:55 PM.
 
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06-14-2009, 09:47 PM
  #412 (permalink)  
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QUOTE:
Originally Posted by fantanoice View Post
Not to mention Ancient Egypt (thought to be one of the earliest human societies) is assumed to have occurred 10,000 years ago. Ancient Greece and Rome are assumed (I think) to be out of that 6000 year range as well.
Egyptian civilization began around 4000 BC. Greece began around 1700 BC, and Rome in 700 BC.

[quote=titan10818;1659493]I can't do it exactly how I want to but the way I do it is really simple. All you have to do is highlight the area of text you want to quote and go up to the little icon on the toolbar that says, "Wrap
QUOTE:
tags around selected text". Then return a few spaces and you've got it made.



*LCMS Lutheran. There is a large difference between that and ELCA lutherans.

Our belief structure didn't start off believing what the Catholics believed; we had the same faith ever since Christ came to earth but it was lost during the Middle Ages. When people started becoming educated and began to actually read and examine the Scripture, there were many Reformations.



Here is a quote from Clarifying Christianity which basically states the same thing I was getting at.

Behemoth has the following attributes according to Job 40:15-24

It “eats grass like an ox.”
It “moves his tail like a cedar.” (In Hebrew, this literally reads, “he lets hang his tail like a cedar.”)
Its “bones are like beams of bronze,
His ribs like bars of iron.”
“He is the first of the ways of God.”
“He lies under the lotus trees,
In a covert of reeds and marsh.”


Some people try to say that this was an elephant or some other large animal but there is no way you can get that when looking at the characteristics.That could be dozens of different animals, not just a dinosaur.



Excuse me about giving the crocodile example. There are some reptiles that do not stop growing, not all. Humans do not grow up until they die (unless they had a growth disorder).



God explained this at Mount Sinai to Moses. I'm not sure the verse but I think it is in either Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, or Deuteronomy (sorry for the vagueness).



All the dinosaur were fossilized except for the two (of each species) and their future offspring. Floods are one of the special conditions that are able to fossilize creatures. There is so much sand, mud, sediment, and rock being thrown about in the huge currents during a global flood that the creatures would be fossilized instantly. There is actually a dinosaur that was fossilized while giving birth. That means all the fossils ever found were created at the exact same time, witch is false. And something cannot be "fossilized instantly". It takes thousands of years.

There is absolutely no way dinosaurs existed the same time as humans. There would be countless records from across the globe of this.



During the flood, the water was not exactly perfect living conditions; there were large currents that would easily have buried them with tons of sediment in hours and maybe even minutes. What exactly do you mean by certain animals being evil? All animals (after the first sin) have the instinct to survive no matter their means of doing so. I don't see what you mean by some being evil and others not.



Lucifer tried to actually be God himself. That is a huge difference from just doing a little sin. Besides, in heaven, there is no sin and it is perfect. Apparently, the angels could sin but they also already were able to be in paradise before that and were smart enough not to sin.



The Bible says that the sins of the fathers will carry on to the third and fourth generations of those who hate him. It could easily go farther then that. Our world was perfect before sin entered into it. Once it came in, sin would always be present, in everything aspect. That is why you see thorns, weeds, disease, and evil in our world. Every person is born into a sinful world with a sinful nature. Now that Adam sinned, the world is sinful. Once you are born into that world, you are born with sin. Why would such a malevolent force allow that to happen? It is possible to wipe out sin yet sustain free will. Religion wasn't "invented"; it has always been here. Actually it came around when man had enough brain power to wonder about things and used gods to explain the forces of nature. It also isn't for getting people to join but rather to save people's lives for eternity. And to capture Jerusalem from the Muslims, lol.



Cool.



Uhhh....this is a complex question. I can't say yes or no. Just because the Pope isn't Lutheran, it doesn't mean he isn't going to hell. There could be someone in a different denomination who has the right faith (by reading the Bible and disregarding some of what their church teaches) and could still be saved. If the Pope actually believes what his church teaches, then he would be going to hell since the church contradicts the Bible. Again, what about people in the Americas before its discovery by Europeans?



We really can't know for sure. I don't like thinking about it because it makes me sad if it is true. What I think is that if the baby has somehow heard the Word (through his mom), then I have the inclination to hope that the baby would be saved. Unfortunately, we don't know because the Bible doesn't actually say so. It does say that you will be saved through Baptism but also through hearing the Word. That is really all I can say.



Good question. We pray (in the Lord's Prayer) that God's will be done but that doesn't mean it always is. Since Adam sinned, the world is cursed with sin. You would be exercising your free will by doing the crime and God would be sad. God would have allowed you to do that because of our sinful world but he wouldn't have wanted that.



Another good question. You would be forgiven from your sin(s) if you really are truly repentant. You would also have to have the right faith to be able to go to Heaven. That means that 2/3 of the population is going to hell.



If you ask for forgiveness and then go and do the same crime, then you are not truly repentant. You would then go to hell by really not asking for forgiveness.



It is impossible for everyone (except Jesus) to live a life without sin. If you could, then it would be possible but everyone knows that it is impossible. You have already sinned before you were able to consciously think about it.



There is no such thing as a non-sinner but assuming your premise is correct, the unbelieving non-sinner would be worse (as long as the penetant sinner has the right faith). The "non-sinning" atheist would not believe the saving work of Jesus Christ (since he doesn't believe in God) and thus, would not lead a "non-sinning" life. It is impossible for someone to not sin unless they have the right faith.Again, good bye to the 4 billion non-Christian people going to hell.
 
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Originally Posted by Riot View Post
Fun fact of the day #2:

Did you know Adam Scott was formerly made into a God-like figure until he confessed he was a homosexual?
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06-15-2009, 03:56 PM
  #413 (permalink)  
"
Would a Religion discussion thread be helpful here since we seem to be moving more towards a discussion on religious beliefs?
 
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06-15-2009, 04:00 PM
  #414 (permalink)  
"
QUOTE:
Originally Posted by Gwyno View Post
OK I think this is going to go easier if I stick to one issue at a time and stick to the creationist thing. Original sin is a good debate but off the topic for this really.
Sure

QUOTE:
So, the fossil issue. As far as I am concerned, the dinosaur fossils are millions of years old. Hundreds of millions of years. Scientific analysis has shown us this. You believe that the earth is 6,000 years old and the fossils are really about 5,000 or so I guess.
So basically, you believe that fossils are millions of years old due to the dating methods we have today?! Do you realize how imperfect those dating methods are? Using some of those dating methods, they found fossils that were supposed to be a few hundred years old buried in rock a few billion years old! How do you explain that? Also, when St. Helens erupted, it fossilized some trees and other things. When they tested those things later on, they came out to be millions of years older then what they truly were. These dating methods are far from accurate. They really only can be accurately tested for up to about 6000 years.

QUOTE:
What do you think of the scientific evidence? We know how to date things. The methods have been accepted for years and years by all the people with beards who always seem to know what they are talking about. Personally I believe that the scientists are right. They know more than me and their experience has been built up over generations so I accept what the results of their experiments show. From your point of view was every test done inaccurate? Are the instruments giving incorrect readings?
Read the above paragraph. You have brought out a point that many people see. You talk about scientists as if they were more superior and perfect beings. But you must remember, scientists are humans. Humans make mistakes. Therefore, scientists make mistakes. There have been so many different times in history where the scientists claim that they were right when time proved them wrong.

QUOTE:
Sticking with dinosaurs, from the description you posted from Job I figured it may be some sort of sauropod. Especially with the tree tail. Brachiosaur probably because they were brown. I had to google it to know what I am talking about though.
I don't really know anything about dinosaurs. One thing though, how can you say that a certain dinosaur was a certain color? You can't get that from the fossils. Recently I heard that there was a dinosaur fossil that actually had a red blood cell. I doubt that dinosaur was actually billions of years old.

QUOTE:
There are several translations of the description hanging around. All the artwork representing it shows something resembling a boar. I couldn't find anything showing a dinosaur. The cedar tail thing differs too. Some say it hardens like a cedar and others say the tail is more like the cedar branches which could account for an elephant or boar in that part of the world.
If you take the literal translation, a tail like a tree could only allude you to a dinosaur. Elephants and any other mammals of that size have quite small tails. It is obvious that the passage is describing the characteristics of an animal so why would it descibe it literally and then metaphorically? Wouldn't it just be all literal?

QUOTE:
Also, there was only one behemoth. The passages I saw in my brief search don't imply the term is used as a plural. It just doesn't seem that herds of dinosaurs would be referred to in that way. If humans and dinos were living together there'd be more references to them not just one individual.
Not necessarily. If there was at least on dinosaur after the flood, there must have been others. Also, just because the Bible doesn't mention any other "behemoths", it doesn't mean that there aren't any other dinosaurs or other "behemoths". The Bible mentions "dragons" many times which can be translated to be "dinosaurs".

QUOTE:
Behemoth is also described as first in the ways of God and I don;t know what that means but I take it as implying he's some holy thing to be revered rather than just one of many large reptiles living on the planet. Plus monsters appear in many religions for many reasons so it may be a metaphor.
By "first in the ways of God", I would interpret that as being one of the most powerful creatures. If you read the context (chapters 40-41), it is describing how powerful Behemoth and Leviathan are. It is saying how we would be unable to subdue them so I would say that it is more in physical strength rather than being God's "favorite" or anything like that.

Also, here is another point that supports this opinion. From Genesis 1:27-31:

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, 'Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and sub due it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.' Then God said, 'I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground-everything that has the breath of life in it-I give every green plant for food'..."

Clearly, God made man as the highest of creatures and to rule over them. He also made us in his own image which he didn't do for any other creature.

QUOTE:
Oh and Behemoth fights Leviathan at some point in time. Have they had their fight yet and if not where are they at the moment?
Where exactly is this in the Bible? (I'm not quite sure; I'm asking you not because I doubt you but because I want to search it before I make any comments.)
 
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06-15-2009, 04:03 PM
  #415 (permalink)  
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QUOTE:
Originally Posted by Mr.Hardy View Post
Would a Religion discussion thread be helpful here since we seem to be moving more towards a discussion on religious beliefs?
We could except for the fact that both Creation and Evolution are both religions. So really, it wouldn't matter that much. If you do make a new thread, tell me and I will start posting there also.

The more I think about it, it would be a good idea because we could discuss topics like Baptism and Communion and not have to worry about debating about Creation and Evolution.

Whatever you want to do; just please tell me if you start a new thread.
 
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06-15-2009, 04:04 PM
  #416 (permalink)  
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Yeah, I'll make a thread for religion in just a sec.

EDIT: Made the thread.
Last edited by Mr.Hardy; 06-15-2009 at 04:06 PM.
 
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06-15-2009, 04:07 PM
  #417 (permalink)  
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QUOTE:
Originally Posted by Mr.Hardy View Post
Yeah, I'll make a thread for religion in just a sec.

EDIT: Made the thread.
Ok, thanks. I see it.
 
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06-15-2009, 04:09 PM
  #418 (permalink)  
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06-15-2009, 04:30 PM
  #419 (permalink)  
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QUOTE:
Originally Posted by takatahutinkertoy2008ftw View Post
That could be dozens of different animals, not just a dinosaur.
Not really. How many animals do you see with tails like cedars. Maybe I should quote the passage again and please read it carefully.

"...which feeds on grass like an ox. What strength he has in his loins, what power in the muscles of his belly! His tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are close-knit. His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like rods of iron. He ranks first among the works of God...The hills bring him their produce, and all the wild animals play nearby. Under the lotus plants he lies, hidden among the reeds in the marsh. The lotuses conceal him in their shadow; the poplars by the stream surround him. When the river rages, he is not alarmed; he is secure, though Jordan should surge against his mouth. Can anyone capture him by the eyes, or trap him and pierce his nose?"

What other animal besides a dinosaur could this be? I would like to hear your answer.

QUOTE:
That means all the fossils ever found were created at the exact same time, witch is false. And something cannot be "fossilized instantly". It takes thousands of years.
I never said that all the fossils were created at the exact time; I said that most of the fossils were created during the flood. Where do you get the idea that something cannot be fossilized "instantly"? Many catastrophes we see today have fossilized creatures in a manner of a few hours. (That isn't instantly but sure isn't thousands of years.)

QUOTE:
There is absolutely no way dinosaurs existed the same time as humans. There would be countless records from across the globe of this.
That is why dinosaur fossils are found nearby more "modern" creatures. There are examples of this; look around.

QUOTE:
Why would such a malevolent force allow that to happen? It is possible to wipe out sin yet sustain free will
The key word is the passive verb, allow. Just because God could stop it it doesn't mean that he has to. For some reason, God allows evil. The Bible doesn't answer why he allows evil but only why there is evil and what God's plan was for men to be saved. If you "wipe out sin", then there wouldn't be free will. By exercising free will, you would either obey God or disobey him. If you can't disobey him (by free will), then you really don't have free will.

QUOTE:
Actually it came around when man had enough brain power to wonder about things and used gods to explain the forces of nature.
And where do you get any support for this statement?

QUOTE:
And to capture Jerusalem from the Muslims, lol.
I don't really know if the Crusades should be justified. I think I agree with you here.

QUOTE:
Again, what about people in the Americas before its discovery by Europeans?
Shortly after the flood, the Bible says that "God spread out the world". After such a large catastrophe as a global flood, there would be much plate movement. When the people dispersed across the world (because of the confusion of different languages), some people went to the Americas as the world was being spread out.

QUOTE:
That means that 2/3 of the population is going to hell.
Where exactly do you get 2/3? Anyways, you are right. There are many people who will end up going to hell because they have rejected the message of the Bible and God.
 
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06-15-2009, 05:22 PM
  #420 (permalink)  
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I'm not religious, but I'd have to go with Creation.
 
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