Actually, the conditions before the flood were quite different then post-flood times. Most disease wouldnt' have been prominent until later. Also, God told them to populate the earth. How could he say this if there were genetic diseases related to inbreeding at that time? Basically, he would be telling them to have kids that would die. If you are going to believe the Bible, then you must believe it all (and then it does make sense). Sodom and Gomorrah was actually a horribly sinful society (homosexuality). When Lot came there, the males asked for the "male" angels rather then the virgin daughter he had. That is one of the main reasons God brought his wrath and punishment to them. On the other hand, God actually told Adam and Eve to reproduce. It might seem weird now, but by reproducing with eachother, they were fulfilling God's command. Also, they didnt' have anyone else to "bonk" so it wouldn't have seemed to weird as it does today. Also, they didnt' just go around screwing eachother; they actually were reproducing to make children, not for sexual pleasure.

I have never changed one things about my religion and neither has my denomination. I would like you to give me an example so I can easiliy refute it. The Catholics (with the meat idea) as well as many other religions do that all the time; they are hyprocrites. There is no place in the Bible that even gives a small hint of saying that you should not be able to eat meat on Friday.

You also have to realize, that all religions aren't the same. They are actually much different. Any denominations that allow gay priests or ministers is definitely not proclaiming the true faith. The Bible obviously condemns homosexuality. Tell me where in the LCMS Lutheran church we have changed one stance over the history of our denomination. (I wouldn't bother searching for something if I were you.)

Part of diversity in animals is due to intelligent design but not always. Animals will adapt to their environment and if there is a better dominant gene, then it is passed to the future generations.

The Bible doesn't actually say it but it is obvious from looking at science that it has happened (look at the finches on the Galapagos islands). There is such a thing as finding out information from other sources then the Bible. The Bible is a large book but it doesn't include every little aspect of God, history, or anything else. Except for faith; it has everything you would need to know (since that is the main goal).

You are basically right; I don't see much of a contradiction from what you just said and what I said. The angels were "supposed" to worship God since that was the sinless and perfect place but Satan (Lucifer) decided that he wanted to be God. By doing so, God then threw him out of heaven into everlasting torment (when our world comes to an end). For now, Satan is trying to steal as many of us as possible before he has to be in torture for eternity. Where we have a difference is that the angels weren't "slaves" or anything like that and they didn't have to be freed; they all had free will and when Satan excercised that, he sinned by wanting to be God himself.



It's not only baptism but also by hearing the Word. The Word causes people to be baptized so they go together. A baby is still young and hasn't developed the mind to actually have faith in God so baptism is the only way they could be saved (I think, we dont' know for sure).

You are right, God allows evil because he allowed it to be present in our world. He doesn't make us do evil or anything like that but rather the passive verb, allow. I don't know why he created evil. My best idea would be that if he didnt' create us with the ability to sin, then we would basically be a bunch of robots without free will. That is my theory and I really don't know what God really is thinking (the Bible doesn't actually say).

QUOTE:

So here's a comparison. I get one of my cats and put some biscuits in her bowl. I then decide that if she eats the biscuits she is a bad cat and an evil sinner of a cat. I will then punish her for the rest of her life and for the rest of eternity by branding her with hot coals and sharp spikes and whetever else goes on down there. Not only that, but any kittens she has (theoretically, she's neutered) and any kittens they would ever have or kittens they have would also be subject to the same punishment unless they begged forgiveness for my eveil cat. If I did that it would make me an arsehole! If your God had chosen to do the same to mankind then he would be an arsehole too!

The "kittens" are born into the world, not hell. (I might have misunderstood you here.) Here is a better comparison. You put biscuits in her bowl and then poop in another one. You tell him (and supposing he understands you) that he shouldn't eat the poop. So, what does he do, he goes over and eats the poop. That is more how the situation was. But that also isn't the last chance. God then sent Jesus Christ down to earth to die on the cross and forgive our sins to all who believe solely in his saving work. We don't get punished for the rest of our lives because of what Adam did but we do have a chance to be saved where we live in perfect Heaven for the rest of eternity.



I had to cut the post in half because it was 17,000 characters and it only allows 10,000 at a time, lol. I sure am mouthy.

I have no idea. So probably Creation. you can't evovle from the world without something to evolve from. So Creation.

Creation has been around since the idea of Evolution (maybe even before that). Evolution was around during the times of the Greek philosophers and Creationists believe that Satan actually believed that God had "evolved" to be more superior then everyone else. We think the idea of Evolution actually came from Satan himself but became more prominent with Darwin.

Actually, the Bible is based on true stories. Tell me an example that is just made up. The Bible surely doesn't say that the stories are made up and I don't see where you get this idea. The Bible says the stories are facts and many of the stories can actually be proven from history. In fact, the Bible is a source of history and actually is the only source of information that at least claims to have an accurate account of the beginning of the world. Evolution doesn't have any sources like that. I really don't see where your opinions are based off of facts. I believe that the Bible actually is the Word of God.

God and Evolution don't mix. Evolution claims that there was death, disease, and sin from the beginning of the world. God says (through Creation and the Bible) that death, sin, and disease came from man's sin.

If humans actually evolved like you say, then what exactly did we evolve from? I would like you to show me a step-by-step progression from the simple organism to the human in the fossil record. Oh wait, there is none.

Which version of the Bible do you go by? Old or New Testimate?

Pfft, sins are determined by society, not 'God'. Today's western society claims that animal cruelty is a sin and yet there are societies (including religious ones) that believe that's not the case. Anybody feel like sacrificing an animal? <_<

Diseases are caused by microorganisms which attack the body. Also, diseases don't just exist in humans. Animals get sick too, you know.

Things have died before humans walked the Earth. Did you forget the dinosaurs again?

So you've never seen anything like this before?

My reply to Titan. You'll have to excuse the lack of quoting. I fail badly at quoting.

First off I didn't know your denomination was Lutheran. I will agree that the particular branch has not chopped and changed but don't forget that even your belief structure started out as something else before someone disagreed with the church and sought his own way. I forget the main point of contention though.

I don't agree that the bible gives stories of humans living with dinosaurs. It mentions a leviathan but wasn't that some sea monster that could just have easily been a whale? The term can be translated into several variations from what I understand so it is pretty loose to base an argument on. Fossil records demonstrate that dinosaurs were effectively gone by the time man came on the scene (mammoths, sabre-tooths and stuff were about though)

The canopy and growth - Creatures stop growing before the end of their life. If you had a crocodile that lived for 500 years it would not get any bigger than it's maximum size now (but middle and old age spread would kick in). Dinosaurs did not get big because they lived for a long time. How tall was Methuzula by the time he died? Your calculations would imply 96 feet assuming 5 feet of growth per 50 years or did not the growth thing not apply to warm blooded creatures?

If Adam and Eve were ok to mix and match bonking partners to reproduce when did it get to the stage when it was not ok to bonk your family? Was it after the flood? When did the instructions come to say that the reproduction strategy had changed from open season to distant non-family because of the inbreeding dideases that would now come about because of the mist canopy being gone?

The flood - A flood will not cause fossils and if it did all the dinos would have been fossilized but we know that only certain conditions cause fossilisation.

What about the floating and swimming loophole? The leviathan could swim so would be unaffected by flooding. How did they die out? And how come no floating or swimming animals were evil like the mice and rabbits?

Lucifer and his free will - If by merely expressing his free will he offended God that badly how can you say angels were created for anything other than serving? There is a massive hole in that argument.

The cat thing - I am talking about original sin here. The implication is that every kitten for all time would be born guilty because of what my cat did. They would need to seek forgiveness for my evil nasty biscuit eating kitty or spend eternity being punished. The belief is that one is born destined for hell because of what someone did 6,000 years ago (or around then anyway). If it is true (which I can't believe it is) then it's harsh on the future generations who were not even there at the time. The concept was invented to give the people at the time no choice but to join a religion. It is a man made control element of the structure.

I have a few questions I'd like to run past you to see how your belief structure assesses things.

Given that the Pope is not a Lutheran, Is the Pope going to hell?

If a baby is still-born does it go to hell?

I leave my house tomorrow morning and than stab someone on the way to the office, is it God's will or free will?

If I then beg forgiveness for the sin do I avoid going to hell?

Can I then repeat the process switching from murderer to repenter and providing I am in a repent cycle when I die do I avoid going to hell?

If I choose never to commit any sin as far as God is concerned but have always chosen to live life as an aetheist do I go to hell?

What is worse - A penetant sinner or an unbelieving non-sinner? (if there could be such a thing assuming non-belief is a sin)

What do you mean? I go by the entire Bible; all the Bible is the Word of God. This includes both the Old and the New Testaments.

So where did our societies decide what was a "sin" or not? When did they decide that something was bad or something was good? It pretty much goes against the idea of Evolution by restricting survival of the fittest.

Ok...I'm not sure exactly what you getting at. There really is nothing to discuss here.

Uhh....no. Dinosaurs were created on the same day as man. Man sinned and thus brought sin into the world which allowed dinosaurs to get diseases and to die as well as any other organism.


lol...this isn't actually fossils or evidence; it is animated through computers and ideas that we have.

I have a problem with that, scientific logical totally put aside, that's just plain ridiculous. Man's sin suddenly "allowed" other animals to get sick and die? So up until then, no animals got sick and died?

Furthermore, DINOSAURS? LMFAO. Fossil records of dinosaurs show they died millions of years ago, not within the past 6 thousand years. Ahahahaha, that's rich, saying man killed dinosaurs with diseases.

Plus, the whole perfect man living forever, etc. How the hell is that going to work when the Earth becomes overpopulated and nothing dies? Not just humans, but other animals as well, INSECTS. There wouldn't be enough plant life to support an over-crowded planet full of bugs and animals that don't die. That's ridiculous.

They're not really "sins" in the religious sense, considering sins in all technicality are strictly limited to the ideologies of the church, etc. Of course, if we're going to be technical here, then technically, there's no such thing as "right" or "wrong", seeing as they are just concepts based on the PERSONAL VIEWS of the INDIVIDUAL. That's why people justify slaughtering other people who've infringed on their rights, or groups of people massacring entire populations in the name of God, their country, or whatever.

But saying the idea of developing concepts of good and bad goes against evolution is completely preposterous, seeing how they're not even physical restrictions, lmao. They're simply the acceptances and taboos that society has decided. As a society, there is a general consensus of what we tolerate and what we frown upon; that's all that means, nothing more.

I can't do it exactly how I want to but the way I do it is really simple. All you have to do is highlight the area of text you want to quote and go up to the little icon on the toolbar that says, "Wrap [quote] tags around selected text". Then return a few spaces and you've got it made.

*LCMS Lutheran. There is a large difference between that and ELCA lutherans.

Our belief structure didn't start off believing what the Catholics believed; we had the same faith ever since Christ came to earth but it was lost during the Middle Ages. When people started becoming educated and began to actually read and examine the Scripture, there were many Reformations.

Here is a quote from Clarifying Christianity which basically states the same thing I was getting at.

Behemoth has the following attributes according to Job 40:15-24

It “eats grass like an ox.”
It “moves his tail like a cedar.” (In Hebrew, this literally reads, “he lets hang his tail like a cedar.”)
Its “bones are like beams of bronze,
His ribs like bars of iron.”
“He is the first of the ways of God.”
“He lies under the lotus trees,
In a covert of reeds and marsh.”

Some people try to say that this was an elephant or some other large animal but there is no way you can get that when looking at the characteristics.

Excuse me about giving the crocodile example. There are some reptiles that do not stop growing, not all. Humans do not grow up until they die (unless they had a growth disorder).

God explained this at Mount Sinai to Moses. I'm not sure the verse but I think it is in either Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, or Deuteronomy (sorry for the vagueness).

All the dinosaur were fossilized except for the two (of each species) and their future offspring. Floods are one of the special conditions that are able to fossilize creatures. There is so much sand, mud, sediment, and rock being thrown about in the huge currents during a global flood that the creatures would be fossilized instantly. There is actually a dinosaur that was fossilized while giving birth.

During the flood, the water was not exactly perfect living conditions; there were large currents that would easily have buried them with tons of sediment in hours and maybe even minutes. What exactly do you mean by certain animals being evil? All animals (after the first sin) have the instinct to survive no matter their means of doing so. I don't see what you mean by some being evil and others not.

Lucifer tried to actually be God himself. That is a huge difference from just doing a little sin. Besides, in heaven, there is no sin and it is perfect. Apparently, the angels could sin but they also already were able to be in paradise before that and were smart enough not to sin.

The Bible says that the sins of the fathers will carry on to the third and fourth generations of those who hate him. It could easily go farther then that. Our world was perfect before sin entered into it. Once it came in, sin would always be present, in everything aspect. That is why you see thorns, weeds, disease, and evil in our world. Every person is born into a sinful world with a sinful nature. Now that Adam sinned, the world is sinful. Once you are born into that world, you are born with sin. Religion wasn't "invented"; it has always been here. It also isn't for getting people to join but rather to save people's lives for eternity.

Cool.

Uhhh....this is a complex question. I can't say yes or no. Just because the Pope isn't Lutheran, it doesn't mean he isn't going to hell. There could be someone in a different denomination who has the right faith (by reading the Bible and disregarding some of what their church teaches) and could still be saved. If the Pope actually believes what his church teaches, then he would be going to hell since the church contradicts the Bible.

We really can't know for sure. I don't like thinking about it because it makes me sad if it is true. What I think is that if the baby has somehow heard the Word (through his mom), then I have the inclination to hope that the baby would be saved. Unfortunately, we don't know because the Bible doesn't actually say so. It does say that you will be saved through Baptism but also through hearing the Word. That is really all I can say.

Good question. We pray (in the Lord's Prayer) that God's will be done but that doesn't mean it always is. Since Adam sinned, the world is cursed with sin. You would be exercising your free will by doing the crime and God would be sad. God would have allowed you to do that because of our sinful world but he wouldn't have wanted that.

Another good question. You would be forgiven from your sin(s) if you really are truly repentant. You would also have to have the right faith to be able to go to Heaven.

If you ask for forgiveness and then go and do the same crime, then you are not truly repentant. You would then go to hell by really not asking for forgiveness.

It is impossible for everyone (except Jesus) to live a life without sin. If you could, then it would be possible but everyone knows that it is impossible. You have already sinned before you were able to consciously think about it.

There is no such thing as a non-sinner but assuming your premise is correct, the unbelieving non-sinner would be worse (as long as the penetant sinner has the right faith). The "non-sinning" atheist would not believe the saving work of Jesus Christ (since he doesn't believe in God) and thus, would not lead a "non-sinning" life. It is impossible for someone to not sin unless they have the right faith.

I believe in the big bang and all that. The creations are just too magicky :/