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Evolution or Creation?
I am an Atheist Evolutionist 33 28.95%
I am a Christian Evolutionist 23 20.18%
I am a Creationist 36 31.58%
I don't know 22 19.30%
Voters: 114. You may not vote on this poll

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Rand Paul for Kentucky Senate. :D

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05-24-2009, 10:44 PM
  #351 (permalink)  
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Even with this in mind, it's extraordinary how the church, as a political institution, has managed to be so powerful in the Middle Ages. I am often tempted to think that devout christians (ones who go to church every Sunday and take the words of the church leaders for granted - especially catholics) have no historical awareness, because if you look at the history of the church, you'll encounter so many ridiculous things that you could write a soap opera of it. I'm actually suspecting that the leaders of the catholic church back then knew perfectly well that at least 90% of what they did was nonsense, but just used it to maintain power. I'm not saying that there's no possibility of a god being there, maybe even a christian god, but I know for sure that if he existed, he wouldn't be in any way associated with the church.
Very interesting theories, but I think the whole point of following a religion is not the history or the people in the church itself, but rather spiritual guidance that becomes beneficial in one's life. Faith can have an impact on individual lives, often positive if it leaves out intolerance, judgment, and violence, and rather is used for inspiration.

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Take for example the whole system of 'repent' that titan described. It's a prime example of how the goal of this religion has shifted from making people live their lives responsibly, to a set of neurotic rituals that were obviously made up by man. This is what christianity seems to be about for a large part: neurosis. Christianity, and a lot of religions with it, is a compulsive neurosis disorder that manifests itself in collectives of people. And as one naughty man once put it, christianity is a very interesting case for medical science.
I think there will be people that find your theory offensive, but you have every right to share, and it is very brave of you. I agree that some people are using religion the wrong way nowadays. In my opinion, it should be used for spiritual guidance, motivation, and inspiration. It should not be a cult or be used to take advantage of people. I'd have to disagree with you that Christianity and other religions are compulsive neurotic disorders. Rituals have been here since the dawn of time. They are a part of human nature. It's nothing abnormal.
Last edited by MichelleHeart; 05-24-2009 at 11:59 PM.
 
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05-24-2009, 10:47 PM
  #352 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Quasar View Post
I go through every post, and replace swear words I like with hearts. I'm like Santa
Rand Paul for Kentucky Senate. :D

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05-25-2009, 12:00 AM
  #353 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by c9j10 View Post
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Huh?
 
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Im a Christian and a Conservative, and I am proud of it.

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05-25-2009, 12:18 AM
  #354 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Iain View Post
I like to look at christianity from a psychological and historical perspective. It's fairly interesting how a Jewish sect became so dominant in the Western world. In this sense the presence of christianity in our society should be seen as a complete coincidence: Jesus Christ was a cult leader like many others in his time. He just hit the jackpot. Of course christians will argue it was all part of a pre-destined plan, but like with many 'arguments' in christianity, it's just a weak thesis that can't be proven or disproven, meant to escape the burden of evidence.
The Jews based their religion on the Bible (at least what was there at that time); the Christians base their religion on the Bible. Before Christ came, the Bible spoke of the Christ who was to come. Jews weren't just jews who believed their religion for no reason and then many happened to be "convinced" by a "cult leader". Jews based their religion from the Bible which talked about the Christ to come. It would be better to say that before Christ came, the Jews had the true faith and then once Christ came, Christians have the true faith. So really, the religion didn't change but rather the old religion was fulfilled and the new religion was set in place. Basically, before Christ came, the religion looked forward to Christ and after Christ came the religion looks back towards Christ.

QUOTE:
Even with this in mind, it's extraordinary how the church, as a political institution, has managed to be so powerful in the Middle Ages. I am often tempted to think that devout christians (ones who go to church every Sunday and take the words of the church leaders for granted - especially catholics) have no historical awareness, because if you look at the history of the church, you'll encounter so many ridiculous things that you could write a soap opera of it. I'm actually suspecting that the leaders of the catholic church back then knew perfectly well that at least 90% of what they did was nonsense, but just used it to maintain power. I'm not saying that there's no possibility of a god being there, maybe even a christian god, but I know for sure that if he existed, he wouldn't be in any way associated with the church.
During the Middle Ages, Catholicism was really the only active "christian" church (if you can call it that). The Catholics have so many weird ideas that were made up apart from Scripture. You are right when you say that the leaders knew what they were doing and just did it to stay in power. The services were held in Latin and only the priests knew that language. They kept the "common people" mostly uneducated to make it easier to promote their "nonsense" (ex. purgatory, penance, sacred items, etc.). Around the 1500s, people started actually examining the Bible and looking at what it actually said. That is why you get so many Protestant churches starting from that time. From there, some people saw the truth while others made up new but false religions. The true religion stayed the same but during the Middle Ages, it was almost obsolete.

QUOTE:
Take for example the whole system of 'repent' that titan described. It's a prime example of how the goal of this religion has shifted from making people live their lives responsibly, to a set of neurotic rituals that were obviously made up by man. This is what christianity seems to be about for a large part: neurosis. Christianity, and a lot of religions with it, is a compulsive neurosis disorder that manifests itself in collectives of people. And as one naughty man once put it, christianity is a very interesting case for medical science.
If you are saying that since all we have to do is "repent" so we can sin all we want, then you are wrong about my belief. The Bible still wants us to live our lives responsibly and ethically and being "good" people to be ro-models for others. Even though you can sin all you want and then repent and God will forgive you, the Bible tells people to refrain from sinning as much as possible. I found some quotes from Romans showing this.

"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" - Romans 6:1-2

"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offere yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one who you obey-whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?" - Romans 6:15-16

Even though Christ has paid for our sins and we can ask for repentance, it does not mean we should continue to sin. The Bible also speaks about unrepentant sinners and how with refusing to turn away from sin, can actually cause spirtitual death and eternal damnation. Therefore, by repenting, we are forgiven but only if we are truly repentant and turn away from those sins.
 
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Im a Christian and a Conservative, and I am proud of it.

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05-25-2009, 12:21 AM
  #355 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by MichelleHeart View Post
Believe it or not, I am not a Christian, so I see the Bible as book of inspiration rather than a book that must be followed word for word. I get my belief in God from a spiritual perspective; a theory that lies inside my heart. The theory, my friend, is this: Love is God, and God is Love. I may not identify with any religion in particular, but I am a believer. I am a spiritual person.
Basically, you are saying that you derive your religion from your feelings and emotions (correct me if I'm wrong). In that case, how can you be sure that your belief is correct? If it is only there because of what you want, then how do you know that it is actually the right faith? To me, it appears that your religion is more to make you feel good rather than a spiritual guideline (once again, please correct me if I'm wrong).
 
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Im a Christian and a Conservative, and I am proud of it.

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05-25-2009, 12:34 AM
  #356 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by MichelleHeart View Post
Rituals have been here since the dawn of time. They are a part of human nature. It's nothing abnormal.
This reminds me of an important idea. All the early civilizations have the same interpretation of the stars. Me, being an uneducated person in astrology, looks up at the stars and sees....stars. But every early civilization all had the same "patterns" The early civilizations not only had the same patterns but they also had the same stories attributed to the stars. The stories also had the gospel message which is found in the Bible. (There is a virgin instead of a regular woman and much more.) How come all these different people had the same ideas? Maybe, it was because the Bible is correct and God actually taught Adam and Eve many aspects of life and eventually, these ideas were passed along to their children and then dispersed into the many different civilizations after the "episode" at Babel. (The different civilizations all have slightly different interpretations but you have to account for micro-evolution. The message and images are still the same.)
 
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Nowhere/Catastrophe

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05-25-2009, 01:17 AM
  #357 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by titan10818 View Post
This reminds me of an important idea. All the early civilizations have the same interpretation of the stars. Me, being an uneducated person in astrology, looks up at the stars and sees....stars. But every early civilization all had the same "patterns" The early civilizations not only had the same patterns but they also had the same stories attributed to the stars. The stories also had the gospel message which is found in the Bible. (There is a virgin instead of a regular woman and much more.) How come all these different people had the same ideas?
Not every civilization had the same patterns and stories, that's just ridiculous. There were similarities between, for example, the Greek, Egyptian and Persian civilizations, which is easily explainable because all of these civilizations had contact with eachother. Christianity has taken over many of these elements both by means of tradition as by means of making the newly imposed religion acceptable for the subjects.

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The Jews based their religion on the Bible (at least what was there at that time); the Christians base their religion on the Bible. Before Christ came, the Bible spoke of the Christ who was to come.
Stop turning things around. Christians (i.e. Jews) incorporated Jewish scriptures and called it the Old Testament. They added the New Testament by means of 'improvement': christianity was to be a 'complete' and 'final' version of judaism. Islam, by the way, works by the exact same thought, as it sees Mohammed as the final and most important prophet - as an improvement of christianity.

And yes, the Old Testament did speak of a saviour. The concept of a divine saviour that comes to earth can be found back in nearly every religious scripture ever. Who that saviour is, though, drastically differs per religion.

QUOTE:
Jews weren't just jews who believed their religion for no reason and then many happened to be "convinced" by a "cult leader".
Jews weren't massively convinced by a cult leader; I didn't say that. At the time Christ died, he had a small group of followers (i.e. cult followers) which would remain small in the decades to come. By a fortunate turn of events eventually christianity started rising in popularity within the decaying Roman Empire and was gradually 'Europeanized'. But it definitely started out as an Asian cult.

QUOTE:
During the Middle Ages, Catholicism was really the only active "christian" church (if you can call it that). The Catholics have so many weird ideas that were made up apart from Scripture. You are right when you say that the leaders knew what they were doing and just did it to stay in power. The services were held in Latin and only the priests knew that language. They kept the "common people" mostly uneducated to make it easier to promote their "nonsense" (ex. purgatory, penance, sacred items, etc.). Around the 1500s, people started actually examining the Bible and looking at what it actually said. That is why you get so many Protestant churches starting from that time. From there, some people saw the truth while others made up new but false religions. The true religion stayed the same but during the Middle Ages, it was almost obsolete.
While it is true that some protestants tried to purify christianity from symbolism and unnecessary ritual, nearly all of them still suffered from the same psychosis, and incorporated neurotic elements described before. Many protestant countries are/were just as insane as their catholic counterparts, not in the last place conservative America.

QUOTE:
If you are saying that since all we have to do is "repent" so we can sin all we want, then you are wrong about my belief. The Bible still wants us to live our lives responsibly and ethically and being "good" people to be ro-models for others. Even though you can sin all you want and then repent and God will forgive you, the Bible tells people to refrain from sinning as much as possible.
First you deny that all you need to do is repent, and then you confirm that indeed that's all there's necessary to earn a ticket to heaven. Just admit that it's flawed. Someone who's spent all his life helping people goes to hell because he didn't choose the right faith, out of the ten thousands of possibilities, and some criminal who happens to be a christian goes to heaven because he asks God for forgiveness on his deathbed.

It's just a rule made up by people, humans, to considerably favour their own group. It makes absolutely no sense from a normal point of view. Then christians will say 'God works in mysterious ways', but again this is just another hollow statement with which they attempt to eliminate discussion on their religion's obvious flaws.

QUOTE:
Basically, you are saying that you derive your religion from your feelings and emotions (correct me if I'm wrong). In that case, how can you be sure that your belief is correct? If it is only there because of what you want, then how do you know that it is actually the right faith? To me, it appears that your religion is more to make you feel good rather than a spiritual guideline (once again, please correct me if I'm wrong).
How do you know for sure your belief is correct? Because the church leaders tell you so? Don't get on her back for not going to cultist meetings and instead living an ethically responsible life without surrendering to the meaningless iconology that is organized religion.
 
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Il ne l'sevent, ne dïent veir nïent:
C'est li granz doels por la mort de Rollant.
Nowhere/Catastrophe

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05-25-2009, 01:23 AM
  #358 (permalink)  
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Very interesting theories, but I think the whole point of following a religion is not the history or the people in the church itself, but rather spiritual guidance that becomes beneficial in one's life. Faith can have an impact on individual lives, often positive if it leaves out intolerance, judgment, and violence, and rather is used for inspiration.
Exactly. My whole tirade was not so much against believing in something, but against organized religion. Institutions try to tell people what's good for them, but I think nowadays many people can decide that for themselves.

QUOTE:
I think there will be people that find your theory offensive, but you have every right to share, and it is very brave of you. I agree that some people are using religion the wrong way nowadays. In my opinion, it should be used for spiritual guidance, motivation, and inspiration. It should not be a cult or be used to take advantage of people. I'd have to disagree with you that Christianity and other religions are compulsive neurotic disorders. Rituals have been here since the dawn of time. They are a part of human nature. It's nothing abnormal.
It might be offensive or provocative, but when I see, for example, religious judaism I can't help but make a connection with classic autism. I'm not saying this to be provocative or extreme, but it's just a prime example of symbolic acts having taken hostage of a religion, often forgetting what's it all about (leading a responsible life).

It's funny that you should mention human nature, because if any, christianity has been trying to surpress just that over the last two millenia.
 
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Il ne l'sevent, ne dïent veir nïent:
C'est li granz doels por la mort de Rollant.
Rand Paul for Kentucky Senate. :D

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05-25-2009, 03:25 AM
  #359 (permalink)  
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QUOTE:
Basically, you are saying that you derive your religion from your feelings and emotions (correct me if I'm wrong). In that case, how can you be sure that your belief is correct? If it is only there because of what you want, then how do you know that it is actually the right faith? To me, it appears that your religion is more to make you feel good rather than a spiritual guideline (once again, please correct me if I'm wrong).
Actually, I don't follow a religion. I believe in God, but I don't follow a religion. The thing is, I can't be 100% sure that my belief is correct, but think about my theory again:

Love is God, and God is Love.

Most of my opinions are based off of that theory. Where does the theory come from? I learned it as a child, and it carried over into adolescence. My church leaders had based that theory off of scriptures in the Bible. Once and a while, I will go back to that church for inspiration and such, but I do not consider myself a member of the Christian religion. I would also like to try attending the services of various other religions to see what kind of inspiration I can get. All I know is that church services can be very uplifting if taken the right way.

A lot of my beliefs are also based on what my heart tells me, and I believe that listening to my heart will help guide me in life.

My definition of "spiritual guideline" is something that guides your spirit. Faith definitely guides my spirit.
Last edited by MichelleHeart; 05-25-2009 at 07:46 AM.
 
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Rand Paul for Kentucky Senate. :D

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05-25-2009, 03:34 AM
  #360 (permalink)  
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Exactly. My whole tirade was not so much against believing in something, but against organized religion. Institutions try to tell people what's good for them, but I think nowadays many people can decide that for themselves.
I think whether or not a church is immoral is not is based on how they carry out their agenda. Churches should keep an open mind and preach their message. People can decide based on their mind and heart what makes sense and what doesn't. Faith should be mixed with individual thought.

QUOTE:
It might be offensive or provocative, but when I see, for example, religious judaism I can't help but make a connection with classic autism. I'm not saying this to be provocative or extreme, but it's just a prime example of symbolic acts having taken hostage of a religion, often forgetting what's it all about (leading a responsible life).
Again, you have every right to speak your mind. It's funny how you mention your opinion about Judaism because I happen to be autistic myself. Can you please give me some reasons you see a connection between Judaism and autism? I am curious and interested. The most important thing that comes out of faith is the promotion of good morals and love for others. When religion is manipulated to control people or advance somebody financially or socially, that becomes a problem.
 
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